DUST Search - It is time to fix pub contract payouts.

Edgar Reinhart wrote:

There is a sort of idea at the bottom somewhere.

For FW I think that there is some merit in looking to 'help out' the faction on the end of a prolonged stomp. Currently it is nearly universally more beneficial to swap over to the stomping faction than remain loyal to the loosing one.

I'm a relative newcomer to FW, been playing for 6ish months, am Lvl 5 loyalty for Gal, never run anything else, and in all honesty I'm not that good. Currently my weekly win loss is averaging somewhere around 0.2. I'd like to earn somewhere around 300,000 LP for 3 of the APEX suits. Currently I have around 170,000.

Assuming I'm only winning 1 in 5 matches or so and assuming that that ratio continued if I swapped allegiance to Cal I'm going to be able to earn 300,000 from a standing start in fewer battles than the 130,000 I need if I stick with Gal. I'm a bit stubborn though.

Now there is not necessarily a problem with this. The winners do deserve the points and the spoils of war. However I feel that the punishment for losing is currently a little harsh. i.e No LP, No Salvage, very little ISK and in a stomp very little SP and very few missions completed. It all adds up.

I don't think necessarily that there needs to be any changes to salvage, isk or SP, to the victors go the spoils, but if the point of FW is earning loyalty points then there needs to be more incentive to join and or continue fighting for the losing side, whomever they may be.

I don't think LP payouts should be flat out buffed but what I'd like to see is the losing side being given a small incentive multiplier to continue fighting, and or attract other mercs.

I think that it should be based on overall district ownership. If the ownership is 50/50 then LP payouts should be as they are. However as a faction gains more ownership a multiplier is applied to the other sides LP payouts. E.g if Cal are in control of 75% of faction space, Gal get a 25% multiplier to their LP payouts, win or lose. This wouldn't unbalance or reduce the worth of fighting for the stronger faction but would just give a little nudge and incentive to players who had decided to stay 'loyal.'

(numbers are off the top of my head because it's easy)

Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.


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deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.19 17:46:00 - [1] - Quote First of all this is not about payouts needing to be raised. This is about incentive to win, rewarding activity, and screwing over those that feel that sitting in the red line is a viable tactic because it is currently profitable. -Remove passive payouts for time in battle. This only screws people that join the battle late and rewards those that AFK the full time. -Add a base passive payout determined based on win or lose. 100k for a victory and 25k for a loss sounds like good numbers but obviously those are open for debate. -Adjust the current mechanics of ISK destroyed going into the prize pool so that only 20% of ISK destroyed goes into the pool. This would still be divided based on Win or Loss and WP as it currently stands. -Add an individual "keep what you kill" system. The player who gets the kill on a suit gets 20% of the value of the suit. Players who get assists on those people receive 10% up to 3 people based on actual damage dealt. Only ISK actually destroyed is paid out just like with the current prize pool. This makes terminating clones absolutely essential. -Add a bonus payout per war point. Something small like 500 ISK per WP sounds fair but again very open for debate. This is so that logis have an equal chance of making a profit under the new system as slayers do. My proposed system is not perfect but seems far more balanced than the current system. There would be very little reward in stomping MLT suits and BPOs while it could be highly profitable to fight back against PRO stomps. It also rewards primarily participation while keeping some passive ISK in there so that new players are not totally boned. You will notice that only 70% of destroyed ISK is distributed. This is to keep an ISK sink in there to offset the base payout from win or loss and keep some importance on wallet management since this is really the most important aspect of being a mercenary. Victories would become fairly profitable primarily for those who were participating while AFKing through a loss nets you next to nothing. This highly rewards staying and fighting when you see PRO stompers. Being willing to team up with a couple of people and try to pick off as many PRO suits as possible can be wildly profitable even in loss. It really fits in more with the aspects of pub matches being contracted by large NPC corps. Why would an NPC corp pay a mercenary just for sitting in battle and put little emphasis on if the battle is won or lost.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.19 17:57:00 - [2] - Quote Joel II X wrote: I got 600k for going 11/9 with 1800ish WP. Top of the leader board on the winning side. Usually, I get 200ish k for 9th place on the winning side. Seems like it already rewards ~~WP-whoring~~ contributing to the team. It is a bit unbalanced towards logis. Specifically the cheap ones who just spam crap links and a basic rep tool yet are still able reach the type of WP and payouts you speak of. It makes for situations where leaving battle really is the only answer if you actually want to be profitable. It makes sitting in the red line not doing a thing for the team the most sustained practice of making a profit. It makes it so that risk reward is way out of balance when it comes to pro stomping. The list of flaws in the current system goes on and on but the simple fact is it has become seriously broken through primarily match making and BPOs and does not encourage anyone to actually fight. The biggest problem with match making is top players leaving newbies stranded thanks to little promise of a profit when they see a real fight on the opposite side and from new players going AFK when they feel like they are just going to get stomped into the ground. Before any matchmaking system can work people need to be encouraged to perform bear the level which match making has deemed them to be at.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 07:04:00 - [3] - Quote bumping shamelessly
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 07:58:00 - [4] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Good post. I would prefer if the WP for kills were modified based on the relative meta level of the suites. I.e: (just spitballing numbers) - MIlitia Starter Fit kills a fully stocked Proto player = 200 WP - Proto player kills Militia Starter Fit = 10 WP Two equally strength players would result in today's 50 WP. The payout could still be based on WP contribution as today. The issue there is you get into all kinds of calculations during the match while the server barely seems to handle the ones we already have thanks to profiles, damage mods, and suit bonuses. I feel like another issue with basing on WP contribution is people just have no way of even contemplating what money will be made. With that being the case it is impossible to even begin to balance risk versus reward. People are simply not going to participate any more than currently unless the system gets a serious make over.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:26:00 - [5] - Quote Raven-747 wrote: No way the isk payout should be raised. It will simply promote stomping in pubs besides you won't go broke or low on isk if for a change you "don't proto". As a logi most of the time i get 400k-500k apex suit with just a proto rep tool. I think the current payout is good infact its just a little too much. I run adv and rarely proto in pubs and I'm always making a profit. So its simple, just run a apex or basic maybe adv with basic mods. I can't help but think people who perma run proto complain about isk. Some people in this community can not even manage to read the first line of a post which was bold and underlined. Also how does it promote stomping when under a keep what you kill system you would get absolute peanuts for kill anyone in a mlt, basic, or BPO suit while losing 100k+ if you go down. Did you seriously just copy paste a response without even reading a single word of the OP? @Deadly Goliath LOL 500 would be high. I suppose I was typing too fast and double tapped zero. You are correct that 50 ISK per WP would be a much better number.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:32:00 - [6] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: I often get halfway matches n still end up near if not top of leaderboard somehow but this happened last night again I got maybe third place n my buddy got second to last I got a lil over 200k n he got 70 k so yea payouts working fine u get what u put in I would have thought that you of all people would have taken the time to comprehend a little better. There is absolutely zero incentive to win, zero incentive to play battles that you know are going to be hard, and zero incentive to even leave the red line for new players. When no one has a reason to stay in a battle or even begin to try how can we expect matchmaking to work at all? I give up, everyone here is just copy pasting their responses thinking it is yet another thread whining about payout increases. It is no wonder this game progresses at the rate of a 1 legged turtle on its back in quicksand. CCP listening to a community that cant take 2 mins to read a post before they spend 3 minutes typing out their generic response.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 19:49:00 - [7] - Quote Bright Cloud wrote: Instead of buffing payouts for scrubs in pub matches how about we allow FW gear to be traded so people who are willing to run coordinated squads can sell BPO suits from the FW store to players who dont want to run FW. You do realize this would also buff payouts for proto players who actually stay in the match and fight right?
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.22 21:26:00 - [8] - Quote thor424 wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Bright Cloud wrote: Instead of buffing payouts for scrubs in pub matches how about we allow FW gear to be traded so people who are willing to run coordinated squads can sell BPO suits from the FW store to players who dont want to run FW. You do realize this would also buff payouts for proto players who actually stay in the match and fight right? But every six months a scrub who afks FW could sell the APEX suit he "earned" by sniping in FW (maybe he's lucky and other people carried him) could sell that APEX and get one step closer to whatever goal they had for their wallet when they began "playing" Dust. You are correct. After considering your point I do believe that rewarding farmers is probably the best solution for Dust. People leaving their quarters and actually playing the game would probably require CCP actually work on the game.
deezy dabest 2	Posted - 2015.06.23 20:39:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Addressing pay could help out significantly with match abandonment. Its not only match abandonment that is the issue but also AFKing. I can not even begin to count the number of matches that there was no more than 5 people counting myself even spawned in.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.14 19:28:00 - [10] - Quote New title. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.

deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.14 22:14:00 - [11] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: Lock matches. Split modes into MLT, Basic,Adv, Pro. Bush-MLT gear, everyone knows how to kill others Acq-MLT/BSC Dom-MLT/BSC/ADV Skirm-Anything goes FW-PRO Only Right along with that we can set Scotty to only give an error after 30 minutes because that is about how long it would take to get a match. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 02:02:00 - [12] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: Remember that day when pay outs where like 3m, 8m isk? Scrubs thinking that they can run proto now but still could not hang with the players with actual skill. Seriously why is it that no one can understand that this is not about raising payouts? Is there something I do not know about Dust making people unable to comprehend words? I have more ISK than anyone in this thread with possibly you as the exception to that. What I do not have is a team of blueberries that will actually fight or even stay in the freaking battle when they know they are going to lose because this game has been so idiotically designed. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 02:43:00 - [13] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: Remember that day when pay outs where like 3m, 8m isk? Scrubs thinking that they can run proto now but still could not hang with the players with actual skill. Seriously why is it that no one can understand that this is not about raising payouts? Is there something I do not know about Dust making people unable to comprehend words? I have more ISK than anyone in this thread with possibly you as the exception to that. What I do not have is a team of blueberries that will actually fight or even stay in the freaking battle when they know they are going to lose because this game has been so idiotically designed. You can't fix bad players. You just can't. They have to strive to get better. Some want some do not. You obviously can not fix bad but what you can fix is there being absolutely zero incentive to even try to be good. Currently sitting in the redline generates more profit than actually fighting whether you win or lose. How can match making even have a chance when decent players immediately leave battle allowing the scrubs on their team to be fed to the wolves on the other team. That is why this game is so damn boring, your chances of getting a good match are about as good as winning $500 on a scratch off ticket. GIVE A REASON TO WIN. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 02:44:00 - [14] - Quote Sgt Kirk wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: deezy dabest wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: Remember that day when pay outs where like 3m, 8m isk? Scrubs thinking that they can run proto now but still could not hang with the players with actual skill. Seriously why is it that no one can understand that this is not about raising payouts? Is there something I do not know about Dust making people unable to comprehend words? I have more ISK than anyone in this thread with possibly you as the exception to that. What I do not have is a team of blueberries that will actually fight or even stay in the freaking battle when they know they are going to lose because this game has been so idiotically designed. You can't fix bad players. You just can't. They have to strive to get better. Some want some do not. As sad as it is this is truth. I do agree that fights were more fun because people actually tried but in the end they still got smashed, even though proto gear was running rampant. Those were the best days in Dust because everyone was fighting their ass off. Win or lose they were mostly fun fights which you can not even come close to saying about fights currently. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 19:37:00 - [15] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: I was working on that kind of new payout system, and I realised that some roles while being useful and high-risk weren't rewarded well. I haven't found the right numbers yet but the sytem was looking like this. Fixed base payout around 25k for losers and 100k for winners Payout depending on ISK destroyed and the margin of victory/defeat. You make a pool of ISK destroyed by both teams and you share it between them depending on how close was the match. For example if it's a very close victory, the winners get 60% of the pool and the losers 40% whereas if the victorious MCC still has only lost its shield the winners get 80% of the pool and the losers 20%. Once each team pool is defined it is shared between the players. To avoid a big reward for the 16th player that did nothing, put some WP tresholds (numbers are just there to give an idea). WP under 150=nothing WP between 150 and 400=20% of what each player should get WP between 400 and 600=50% WP between 600 and 800=80% More than 800 WP=100% This one should really push people to fight even if they're losing because by destroying more ISK and getting a smaller defeat they can win significantly more. Moreover you should keep fighting even if you're outnumbered as the pool will be shared between less people. Extra payout per WP scored Bounties for killing a guy, hacking, counter-hacking and reviving a teammate. Bounties would be higher when you kill/save higher tier suits so killing proto stompers is lucrative (moreover it increases the value of the main ISK pool). Hacking an objective would grant x ISK divided by the number of objectives so if x is 60K (it's just an example) : Objective hack in domination/acquisition=60k Objective hack in a 3 points skirmish=20K Objective hack in a 4 points skirmish=15k Objective hack in a 5 points skirmish=12k Counter-hacks would follow the same logic As for WP, bounties are increased when you're defending an objective. The margin part is a kind of cool idea but likely goes well above what we would be able to get out of current dev resources just because then you get into a lot of calculations to determine that. I also feel like that would seriously rewards proto stomping. Extra payout per WP scored is a very dangerous aspect as it could quickly create a mass of redline farmers and boosters who only have the intent to farm ISK and send it to their mains. I have tried to think of a way around this but I am starting to feel like I should remove it from my proposal as well. The bounties you talk about are a really good idea. They are almost like mini missions within each match. These would be great for encouraging new players and could probably be added along side the keep what you kill system with minimal effort. I think a smaller static variable across all modes would be better just because making it variable starts to give more attention to modes that are easier to farm those payouts and creates an even more unnatural shift than we already have. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 19:45:00 - [16] - Quote Edgar Reinhart wrote: There is a sort of idea at the bottom somewhere. For FW I think that there is some merit in looking to 'help out' the faction on the end of a prolonged stomp. Currently it is nearly universally more beneficial to swap over to the stomping faction than remain loyal to the loosing one. I'm a relative newcomer to FW, been playing for 6ish months, am Lvl 5 loyalty for Gal, never run anything else, and in all honesty I'm not that good. Currently my weekly win loss is averaging somewhere around 0.2. I'd like to earn somewhere around 300,000 LP for 3 of the APEX suits. Currently I have around 170,000. Assuming I'm only winning 1 in 5 matches or so and assuming that that ratio continued if I swapped allegiance to Cal I'm going to be able to earn 300,000 from a standing start in fewer battles than the 130,000 I need if I stick with Gal. I'm a bit stubborn though. Now there is not necessarily a problem with this. The winners do deserve the points and the spoils of war. However I feel that the punishment for losing is currently a little harsh. i.e No LP, No Salvage, very little ISK and in a stomp very little SP and very few missions completed. It all adds up. I don't think necessarily that there needs to be any changes to salvage, isk or SP, to the victors go the spoils, but if the point of FW is earning loyalty points then there needs to be more incentive to join and or continue fighting for the losing side, whomever they may be. I don't think LP payouts should be flat out buffed but what I'd like to see is the losing side being given a small incentive multiplier to continue fighting, and or attract other mercs. I think that it should be based on overall district ownership. If the ownership is 50/50 then LP payouts should be as they are. However as a faction gains more ownership a multiplier is applied to the other sides LP payouts. E.g if Cal are in control of 75% of faction space, Gal get a 25% multiplier to their LP payouts, win or lose. This wouldn't unbalance or reduce the worth of fighting for the stronger faction but would just give a little nudge and incentive to players who had decided to stay 'loyal.' (numbers are off the top of my head because it's easy) FW is an area that is really weird since the introduction of the insurance. For that I have proposed LP multipliers based on district ownership similar to Eve in an effort to make it so that the wars do not become totally one sided in exactly the fashion you pointed out. From a lore aspect you could say that any corporation losing ground quickly would be willing to offer up bonuses to get the best mercs possible so why would that not happen here as well. There are many ways aside from payouts to go about offering this incentive but everything with FW must be approached very carefully because it is already a system that can be exploited. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.
deezy dabest IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP Evil Syndicate Alliance. 3	Posted - 2015.08.15 21:13:00 - [17] - Quote Francois Sanchez wrote: WP can already be farmed now to increase ISK and SP payouts. Rewarding WP generation seems essential to me, maybe we can do what they did for SP per WP, so at the beginning you earn lots of SPs per WP but when you reach a high amount (around 3k WP I think) the SP increase per WP becomes very small. So for example it could be 50 ISK per WP until 2000WP, then 25 ISK per WP until 3000 and then nothing. Currently WP farming only results in a reward based on what your team actually destroyed so it is somewhat a diminished return. I am starting to wonder if it would not be better to just give 10% of what is killed to the player who killed the suit, 5% to each assist with a maximum of 3 people, and the other 75% go into the prize pool as normal. That along with flat rewards for win or loss and no time based reward may just be the step we need to take before we go crazy with arbitrary bonuses and rules which at the end of the day leave giant gaps for exploits to pop up. I am going to toy around with my spreadsheet and if this seems to work out well then I will update the original post. Remove NPC orbitals from FW. -- Fix orbital timers for Eve players assisting in Planetary Conquest.